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Post by palacerani on Mar 30, 2016 8:18:54 GMT -8
Don't read if you haven't seen the movie ... {spoiler} It really confuses me how anyone can be asking or even laugh how Batman did abondon his mission to kill Supes at the mention of the name 'Martha'. Did people even pay attention to the movie?! The whole fight, Batman kept referring to Supes as not a man, like he was trying to convince himself he wasn't so that he could justify killing him in cold blood. He repeated it several times for god's sake. He was clearly making an effort to close off any emotional connection to him, to put up armour against any doubt because he knew he needed to be single minded and focused in order to do what he thought needed to be done. But when he heard his mother's name, it ripped that armour away. The memory of his mother was the key to unlocking the soft side of him, the side that feels love and compassion. And then when Lois tells him it's his mothers name ...those ideas of Superman not being a man, of being just a threat to be destroyed, are completely squashed. He has a mother. He is a man. He is more than just a threat. Of course he couldn't go through with it. How could he kill him in cold blood after being brought to that realisation? Batman has always been portrayed in both comics and on-screen as being traumatised by the killing of his parents as he naturally would be... he doted on his mother. In BvS the nightmare he had about visiting the tomb... the Bat coming out of his mother's grave - not his dads... it's obvious the loss of his mother hit him hardest. So it's totally understandable that the mention of "Martha" completely shocked him... the chances of both of their mother's having the same name... This was honestly my fav scene in the movie and I fail to understand how people can even laugh at it ...seriously?! At this point, I think even the legit criticism of the film has evolved into a cultural troll-ish territory now. I mean I can't even take some of the criticism seriously because of how absurd it is. But everyone is entitled to their own opinions  My take on it.... {Spoiler}
On paper, a good idea. But the way the scene was executed made me laugh. It's like a Bollywood movie. Batman is thrashing Superman like crazy and almost kills him and he hears the name Martha and next second it's like you're my pal I'll be on your side? No finesse in that scene at all. Actually the whole movie felt like I was watching Krrrish or something. So badly done. And all those setups for the next movie....I mean who can understand that? They should set it up as a trailer or as an after-credits scene. Showing it in the middle of the movie was so stupid. |
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Post by abhijacko on Mar 30, 2016 9:23:17 GMT -8
My take on it.... On paper, a good idea. But the way the scene was executed made me laugh. It's like a Bollywood movie. Batman is thrashing Superman like crazy and almost kills him and he hears the name Martha and next second it's like you're my pal I'll be on your side? No finesse in that scene at all. Actually the whole movie felt like I was watching Krrrish or something. So badly done. And all those setups for the next movie....I mean who can understand that? They should set it up as a trailer or as an after-credits sceneI said the EXACT same thing to my friend. That 'going through the hard drive' scene was such BS. The stage is FINALLY set for the BvS battle, and everyone is going - yesss. Finally we have it. This is what we have been waiting for ...
Cut to ..
Wonderwoman getting an email from Brucey boy. Then a 5 minute scene of those 3 clips. Then scene cuts back to the fight setup. It was horrendous editing. You pay for Batman v superman, and instead you are force-fed Dawn of Justice.
If WB were not trying to be so desperately different to Marvel, they could have put that scene as a tried and tested mid/post-credits scene and it would have fit perfectly with Bruce's words to WW that they need to find the meta-humans and will have to work together with them
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Post by riverpanthera on Mar 30, 2016 22:18:26 GMT -8
abhijacko - yeah I think we do need to agree to disagree One thing I haven't yet commented on, I liked the dream sequences actually even if they were definitely weird and here's why.. I don't think they were just dreams at all, they seemed more like visions of some sort and the Flash coming to warn Bruce only seems to confirm this, he is definitely from the future, I don't for one second think that was a dream. Now yes this stuff isn't entirely relevant to the movie (although the Superman being evil in those visions also does show us batman's fear of what could happen so gives us more insight into why he wants to take him down) and I agree these scenes would feel a little strange if this movie is viewed as a standalone but I think once we see future movies, those scenes will make a lot of sense. And personally i'm happy with that, because again, I actually love the inter connecting between movies, after all this is one universe and IMO it shouldn't have to be standalone. And also I personally love time travel related stuff and the timey wimeyness that goes with it. So I"m really happy that they actually used it like this. It makes it super interesting because I now am very curious to see how this is going to turn out. Was Flash talking about Superman, or someone else, what did he mean by "Bruce you were right about him", is Superman really going to be evil at some point if that dream is the future. IT raised a lot of questions that I can't wait to see how they are going to be answered. And it shows they are thinking ahead about this universe as a whole, not just a movie at a time.
The hard drive scene could potentially have been done as after credit but the fan in me totally loved the scene itself so I forgive the placement of it. It was just so cool to see a glimpse of these heroes. And you know for sure if they had done it as an after credit that people would be bashing them for copying marvel. So i feel it was a tough choice.
However overall I do think the editing of this movie was definitely bad and the order in which some scenes were placed was weird.
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Post by karan on Mar 31, 2016 5:34:36 GMT -8
This is super funny   |
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Post by palacerani on Mar 31, 2016 7:16:16 GMT -8
I love it. |
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Post by gangsta on Mar 31, 2016 10:01:44 GMT -8
I've read through all the spoilers on the thread even though I haven't seen the movie (not that interested given how mindnumbingly bad the first one was). And they are hilarious. Especially the whole "Mere Paas Maa Hai" moment!! |
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Post by abhijacko on Apr 1, 2016 6:20:37 GMT -8
The movie is very faint in my memory now. So I had a question for people who have watched it Why did Batman go and save Martha? And not Superman? What was the reasoning behind this - I remember Batman Batman saying something to Superman that "you go do this, I will save Martha", but can't recall what exactly |
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Post by karan on Apr 1, 2016 6:35:18 GMT -8
It's because Batman severely attacked Superman with kryptonite so superman was very weak, wasn't he? That's why Batman went to save her.
But if Batman was able to go save her on his own then why couldn't superman go save her in the first place (before the whole fight) given he's more powerful and he always manages to magically save Lois Lane (so why can't he save his mum)?
Also, before they start fighting, why couldn't Superman just quickly say his mum was held captive and could die? |
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Post by abhijacko on Apr 1, 2016 6:49:32 GMT -8
Exactly karan. The Martha-follow up sequence only made whole thing worse I read Wikipedia's Plot. It says "Batman asked Superman to deal with Luthor on the Kryptonian ship while he will take care of Martha". Which is very noble of Batman
But what was wrong with Superman ? The character was so inconsistent and all over the place. TWICE in the same movie, he swooped down to save Lois out of nowhere. With no regards for anyone else. But when it comes to his MOM he doesn't even bat an eyelid giving up control and trusting a guy who had his foot on his neck a minute ago? Especially considering Superman was wayyy more well equipped than Batman to save Martha.
- He would have gotten there faster by flying (as opposed to the Batmobile)
- He wouldn't need Alfred's help to scout out the building plans
Very ODD behaviour
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Post by karan on Apr 1, 2016 7:16:39 GMT -8
Odd indeed abhijacko It's a bit small time for Superman to surrender so meekly to Lex.
On another point, did batman get tricked into believing those letters with red writing on them (i remember one being something like 'you killed your parents') were by superman? That's dumb of him and very unlike batman. Also a bit unlike batman that he makes doomsday chase him without a proper plan to defeat him and likely would have died if it weren't for wonder woman saving him out of nowhere.
IMO the movie dumbed down batman and underplayed superman's powers (his mum instance and not hearing the bomb in the court room for example)
I could go on and on haha |
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Post by abhijacko on Apr 1, 2016 7:22:17 GMT -8
Ohh that doomsday chase was absolutely dumb !! I am not Batman superfan to know everything about it, but even I know that Batman is supposed to have the sharpest detective skills and be an ace planner. Doomsday was destroying Metropolis, so Batman's plan was to distract him and make him chase the Batmobile so now he could destroy Gotham city too? The city he has been fighting for all his life
And he would have been able to retrieve the Kryptonite spear by himself, a lot faster without having doomsday chasing him. The plots and subplots were so silly overall. Atleast it gave us a lot to discuss and talk about |
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Post by karan on Apr 1, 2016 7:26:22 GMT -8
Yep. A LOT to discuss about haha.
I've enjoyed a number of films that had flaws in their script and illogical stuff (films many call bad) as long as they're entertaining throughout but this even failed to do that since it was boring in a number of parts.
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Post by palacerani on Apr 1, 2016 7:48:06 GMT -8
I'm reading all your spoilers and enjoying a good laugh. I had all these questions when I came out of the theater. This should have been a comedy, like a spoof. Would have worked out so well.
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Post by riverpanthera on Apr 1, 2016 19:56:10 GMT -8
This is super funny lol that is quite good. Even though I love this scene in the movie, I can definitely see it being used in humour situations and 'spoofs'. I wonder if the HISHE guys will do a take on it, probably will. I'm really looking forward to that. I saw the movie again, for third time today, and yep still love it (in a way even more although my rating doesn't change) I even tried to look for the flaws this time, and they are certainly there- some 'plot conveniences/ coincidences' in particular, but IMO not really any worse than other superhero movies. Even TDKR had so many illogical moments (and had a lot of hate thrown its way on the internet especially). I guess the difference like karan said is whether you enjoyed the movie enough to forgive those flaws. In my case I did, but in your case you didn't. BTW abhi I still don't get how you think that the hand to fight action was bad but whatever. |
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Post by ujjwala on Apr 1, 2016 22:12:26 GMT -8
I saw the film too. I liked it better than MOS. Its not a perfect film by any reach and was largely how I thought it will be based on MOS, I did liked it on the whole with its flaws. However the tone of Marvel films is more my style, this is different.
I would like them to have more clear cut scenes in the next one and not throw puzzles at me which I have to figure by discussing with friends or read online. The dream sequence, I thought was one of the worse, wasting screen time cause I could not make head or tail of it, however when riverpanthera explained I got it. Next time I would like to get it on my own. This is a superhero film, it should be as clear as possible with what they want to convey.
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Post by abhijacko on Apr 2, 2016 5:57:32 GMT -8
This is super funny lol that is quite good. Even though I love this scene in the movie, I can definitely see it being used in humour situations and 'spoofs'. I wonder if the HISHE guys will do a take on it, probably will. I'm really looking forward to that. I saw the movie again, for third time today, and yep still love it (in a way even more although my rating doesn't change) I even tried to look for the flaws this time, and they are certainly there- some 'plot conveniences/ coincidences' in particular, but IMO not really any worse than other superhero movies. Even TDKR had so many illogical moments (and had a lot of hate thrown its way on the internet especially). I guess the difference like karan said is whether you enjoyed the movie enough to forgive those flaws. In my case I did, but in your case you didn't. BTW abhi I still don't get how you think that the hand to fight action was bad but whatever. And THAT, IMO, is the biggest problem. All superhero movies have those sequences but you are willing to overlook those issues because of two reasons: 1. What follows those "illogical" sequences makes up for it in thrill and entertainment 2. The movie itself is not taking it too seriously, so it gels well with the tone of the movie (its about a guy who dresses up as a bat for crying out loud) BvS failed on both accounts for me, especially the second one. And this is Snyder's specialty. He shoots the movie all serious and tries to stuff it with symbolism and "depth" except that the things actually happening on screen defy all of that. So the final outcome is a pretentious, disjointed movie which is hard to relate to. He tries to be Nolan, but he cannot because he is just not good enough and cares way more about shooting action set pieces and exploding things instead of presenting a coherent story. Which is why I said, its a Michael Bay movie disguised as a Nolan movie. |
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Post by riverpanthera on Apr 2, 2016 12:52:13 GMT -8
He tries to be Nolan, but he cannot because he is just not good enough and cares way more about shooting action set pieces and exploding things instead of presenting a coherent story. Which is why I said, its a Michael Bay movie disguised as a Nolan movie. I don't think that's a fair comment at all and honestly sounds very nolan fanboyish. I'm a huge Nolan fan, but he did not invent dark/serious superhero movies and even if he did, it doesn't mean others can't do it. I really don't see anything in this movie that is nolan like besides the dark/serious tone and there is nothing wrong with having that tone. Yeah it's not going to be to everyone's liking but why should everything be fun and lighthearted. And in fact didn't you yourself say that all Snyder's movies are also dark in tone. Even Watchmen was and this movie is a lot similar to that than any Nolan movie, so why is this considered copying Nolan. This is just Zack's style whether you like it or not. I"m fine with people not liking this movie due to its flaws, but I just hate this idea that the movie can't take itself seriously just because it's a superhero movie with explosions. That's what most comic books are, they have completely outlandish stuff but they also have serious themes. Zack's movies to me actually feel very comic book like, in fact that is perhaps both a good thing and a problem, they are almost too much like a comic book which doesn't gel with everyone. (On the other hand, Nolan's batman movies feel nothing like a comic, they are very realistic, which is the biggest difference between Zack and Nolan for me even if they are both serious in tone, style wise they are completely different) I personally prefer dark/serious movies to the fun/light hearted ones (although I enjoy both) because those movies actually stay with me whereas the fun ones, I enjoy but then I forget about them. Everyone has different likings. If you don't want a movie that takes itself seriously, don't watch it. |
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Post by abhijacko on Apr 2, 2016 19:21:32 GMT -8
You totally misunderstand what I am saying here and it looks like you are taking this personally now, with the "Nolan fanboy" and "dont watch it" comments. Its just a movie at the end of the day Firstly, I never said Nolan invented dark/serious superhero movies. But his TDK trilogy is the most valid comparison because it was the most recent one and especially since he was involved with MOS in some capacity. And IMO Snyder tried to create a Nolan movie by trying to add depth and seriousness to it, except that the serious stuff fell flat, because he was too keen to push onto the next explosion or action set piece. Hence the Michael Bay reference. And I will only judge this movie based on what was presented - Never read a comic book, so I do not have that reference point And I LOVE serious movies that take the material seriously and do justice to it. Snyder just isn't good enough to pull that off from what I have seen of him. |
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Post by riverpanthera on Apr 3, 2016 22:20:25 GMT -8
Y And IMO Snyder tried to create a Nolan movie by trying to add depth and seriousness to it, except that the serious stuff fell flat, because he was too keen to push onto the next explosion or action set piece. I'm taking offense at the fact that you are saying "Snyder tried to create a Nolan movie". Snyder has always made these kinda movies, it's not like he's changing his style to do something more like Nolan. At best, you could just say Snyder tried to create a 'serious' movie and failed, if that is really what you believe. Putting Nolan in there does actually make you sound like a fanboy, because it suggest that you think anything dark and serious is Nolan. Plus you confess you haven't read comics, well then surely you can see how you may not be in the right here about why this movie is done in this style. This movie is heavily inspired by The Dark Knight Returns and it's tone/style matches that completely. It's not being Nolan like, it's just being faithful to the comic. And BvS doesn't even have that much action/explosions.The second part of your comment would be perfect for Man of Steel- that definitely did suffer from the too many explosions thing. However if anything, people have been complaining there wasn't enough action in BvS and that the first half was too slow/boring. I actually think Snyder held back significantly with regards to over the top action and excessive CGI. Only the doomsday fight really had that and of course it will- it's Doomsday. Again, I'm not saying that you can't dislike the movie, feel free, but I feel you are being unfair to Snyder by saying he pretends to be like Nolan. And I"m no snyder fan, so not even saying this out of some sort of loyalty, I love Nolan way more than snyder. |
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Post by abhijacko on Apr 4, 2016 6:10:15 GMT -8
Alright, alright. He did not try to create a Nolan movie Although you clearly did not understand what I was trying to imply when I brought up Nolan - it was not about dark/serious. And this is not about "being in the right or wrong". I will judge the movie presented to me based on my previous knowledge of movies in general (comparative Batman/Superman movies) and my lack of knowledge of the source material should not be held against me. Its like me telling people, who have not read the Harry Potter series that their interpretation of the movies and the style of direction is flawed because I have read the books and know the source material better. We both have opinions on them and they are both valid. No need to take offence to that I am not going to respond to the second half, because I think I already made my thoughts clear about that. We would end up going on circles LOLL |
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Post by abhijacko on Apr 4, 2016 6:10:27 GMT -8
On a side-but-related note, what do you guys think of reports stating that WB is re-shooting Suicide Squad to add more humor/fun to it? I feel like they are being too reactive, instead of being pro-active and it might hurt them. Plus last-minute reshoots almost always tend to ruin the movie and makes it feel disjointed
I was personally never excited for it that much - only reason I was going to watch it was for Margot and Tom Hardy. But this bit of news doesn't help sell the movie to me at all. It implies that the creators are not confident in their product. Ofcourse, it could work out and we could still be presented with a good movie
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Post by karan on Apr 4, 2016 6:23:08 GMT -8
Film's dropped off at the box office. Likely won't cross $350M domestically and $1 Billion globally. Decent but underwhelming given the scale and $400M budget. On a side-but-related note, what do you guys think of reports stating that WB is re-shooting Suicide Squad to add more humor/fun to it? I feel like they are being too reactive, instead of being pro-active and it might hurt them. Plus last-minute reshoots almost always tend to ruin the movie and makes it feel disjointed I was personally never excited for it that much - only reason I was going to watch it was for Margot and Tom Hardy. But this bit of news doesn't help sell the movie to me at all. It implies that the creators are not confident in their product. Ofcourse, it could work out and we could still be presented with a good movie I felt it already had a shade of humor/fun and wackiness to it throughout the trailer (though apparently all the jokes in the movie are in the trailer). Batman v Superman's problems wasn't a lack of or humor or being dark but a flawed script so they've got the wrong idea. 'Funner' promos could help attract a few more initial eyeballs but in the end it's how good the film is that matters. But all just rumors at the moment. |
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Post by abhijacko on Apr 4, 2016 6:35:02 GMT -8
^I had the exact same reaction. They are tackling the wrong issue - you can make a good, fun movie without focusing on humor.
And it most certainly is crashing at the box office. 70-80% drop in second weekend is really bad !
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Post by riverpanthera on Apr 5, 2016 0:01:50 GMT -8
I'm not really surprised it's dropped that big. It was always going to drop big because 1)Everyone who wanted to see this movie, saw it on opening weekend and 2) Those who weren't planning to watch it or were waiting to watch, wouldn't end up doing so because of the bad reviews.
But as a comparison, Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows Part 2 also had a 70% drop on it's second weekend despite great reviews- because it had the same 1) as above. So it's not actually all that bad considering the reviews.
People just making a big deal as always. When a movie has a huge opening weekend, it's always going to drop big the next weekend unless it has been loved almost universally like Star Wars and has a strong repeat watch value.
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Post by riverpanthera on Apr 5, 2016 0:26:11 GMT -8
And this is not about "being in the right or wrong". I will judge the movie presented to me based on my previous knowledge of movies in general (comparative Batman/Superman movies) and my lack of knowledge of the source material should not be held against me. Its like me telling people, who have not read the Harry Potter series that their interpretation of the movies and the style of direction is flawed because I have read the books and know the source material better. We both have opinions on them and they are both valid. No need to take offence to that *Sigh* You didn't get what I meant. I'm not saying your interpretation of the movie is wrong. But your reasoning about 'why' the movie is done in the style it is, is wrong. There is a big difference. One is opinion, the other is fact. It would be like if I complained that Deadpool has a comedic tone and dirty humour. I don't have to like those things or say that they were done in a good way (I only thought that movie was entertaining but nowhere near as good as most people), however it would be wrong of me to say that the tone is not appropriate or that it's not faithful to the comics, when I haven't even read them. And it would also be silly of me to expect anything different considering the trailers reveal the tone (as they do in BvS as well- another reason why I get p***ed off at the 'too dark' complaints, like seriously why even go watch the movie if you don't want that. Too dark is not a valid complaint, make appropriate criticisms of the movie like the bad editing, too much crammed in, over the top Lex Luthor etc.. Note the part about going to watch the movie was not really directed at you and neither was it in my previous post. The 'you' was meant to be more general but I understand I should have worded better.) Or taking the Harry Potter example, it would be like people complaining the last few movies are 'pretending' to be more adult & mature to copy LOTR. They are not, they are just more mature because the source material is more mature. |
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Post by abhijacko on Apr 5, 2016 6:46:52 GMT -8
I think the biggest concern regarding the 70-80% drop for BvS is for the studios
This movie was their second step to setting up DCU and Justice League. MOS got mixed reviews and reaction. This one had their strongest and most popular lineup of superheroes - "the trinity". And it still could not garner universal appreciation or any major repeat value - and now this might not even cross that "billion dollar line". Which would be fine if this wasn't their biggest bet of the year besides Fantastic Beasts. To add to it, last year was terrible for WB. The only proper SUPERHIT they had were Mad Max and Creed - out of 30 odd movies.
On the other side of the spectrum, you have their biggest competitions Disney/Marvel which has cracked 1 Billion 3 times and made almost 800M with something as obscure as the Guardians of the Galaxy. Also Universal has churned out billion dollar grossers in Fast&Furious 7 and Jurassic World.
OFcourse these things are very fickle, and equations can change in the blink of an eye. But WB will be really worried now. A lot will be riding upon Fantastic Beasts and Suicide Squad now (which is why the Suicide Squad re-shoot rumors might be true)
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Post by riverpanthera on Apr 5, 2016 21:40:07 GMT -8
I think more than Suicide Squad, Wonder Woman is going to be the key, that movie has to get a better critical acclaim than BvS did otherwise it would put the remaining DC universe movies at serious risk. Although Justice League will still come out of course cause it will be done shooting by then. However, they will probably can the rest of the movies if Wonder Woman fails.
Suicide Squad is also going to be important, but not as much as WW I feel.
I'm just really glad that Zack is not directing those two movies, hopefully that means they won't be so divisive among the audience. And hopefully critics will be more objective about them too. Cause i still feel that BvS got way too much unnecessary hate from critics, there is no way in hell it deserves that RT score. The audience reactions I understand though.
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Post by abhijacko on Apr 6, 2016 5:56:33 GMT -8
IF WW does well, that will be a big positive for DC. It is a risky project though - inexperienced director, extremely women centric theme, most of the movie is set in 1800's, Gal Gadot isn't exactly a good actor. The good bit is that WW parts were the most universally liked parts of BvS, so it has generated some interest
Gadot keeps talking about pushing the feminist agenda in every other interview of hers. If they do that too much in the movie and make it too preachy, then it will alienate a good chunk of the general audience (non Comic book readers).
They should take a leaf out of Marvel's Agent Carter show. It balanced the fun/adventure/thrill/feminism aspects in perfect doses.
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Post by abhijacko on Apr 6, 2016 6:08:22 GMT -8
Another important point for WW and DC will be. Even if it is a moderate success on the box office, or borderline failure (like Captain America 1, Thor 1) they need to stick by it and make sure it is atleast well received and liked by the wider audience base
That is what Marvel did to manufacture if golden goose (MCU) - generated a LOT of goodwill with GOOD movies and relatablity
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Post by riverpanthera on Apr 6, 2016 13:57:27 GMT -8
I actually hope it's not like Agent Carter, and not because I dislike it, I actually liked Agent Carter's first season. Haven't seen second yet, but I don't think it's been very successful has it, last I heard it was facing cancellation. That show only even got a second season because of the MCU connection. I'm hoping Wonder Woman will have more success than that.
I do agree with you re the moderate success thing though. I think it would be silly to even expect Wonder Woman to be a huge success at BO, it's probably not going to do BvS numbers (which would be brilliant for any other movie) as it's not a movie that people will all flock to watch on first weekend, but then again it also doesn't need to cause probably it's a much lower budget than something like BvS.
On a personal note, I don't mind if they push the feminist angle a bit, because Wonder Woman is a feminist icon and plus it's set in the olden days when women definitely were treated poorly so I think they will do it, as long it is representing what real feminism is i.e it should be about equality. If the movie is entertaining, people probably wont' care about the feminist part anyway.
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